Andy Burnham: From Mayor to Carer – A Personal and Political Journey

Andy: 00:00:00

In my generation of politicians, there's a complete

Andy: 00:00:02

cowardice on these issues.

Andy: 00:00:04

People like myself really should be embarrassed about it.

Louise: 00:00:06

You sound pretty involved to me, considering you're the

Louise: 00:00:09

Mayor of Greater Manchester.

Louise: 00:00:10

When your mum rings you, does she expect you to pull some strings at work ever?

Louise: 00:00:19

Welcome to Do I Sound Like I Care?

Louise: 00:00:21

The podcast by, for and about unpaid family carers.

Louise: 00:00:26

I'm your host Louise Lynch, an Emmy award winning filmmaker turned full

Louise: 00:00:30

time carer for my 84 year old mum who has an Alzheimer's diagnosis.

Louise: 00:00:35

All right mum?

Teena: 00:00:36

Yes.

Louise: 00:00:38

My guest in this episode is Andy Burnham, the Mayor of Greater

Louise: 00:00:41

Manchester, and we chat about his personal experience caring for his dad

Louise: 00:00:46

who has Alzheimer's, the flaws in our social care system, and his thoughts

Louise: 00:00:50

about how politicians are failing carers.

Louise: 00:00:53

Plus, he shares his vision for a national care service.

Louise: 00:00:57

So please don't forget to subscribe, like, share and follow us @CarerPodcast.

Louise: 00:01:03

Hope you enjoy.

Louise: 00:01:10

Right.

Louise: 00:01:10

Are we good to go, David?

Louise: 00:01:12

Yeah.

Louise: 00:01:13

Here goes.

Louise: 00:01:13

I'm a bit nervous and I don't know why.

Andy: 00:01:16

Don't need to be.

Louise: 00:01:17

Well, thank you for the reassurance.

Louise: 00:01:18

So, Andy Burnham, welcome to Do I Sound Like I Care, the podcast.

Louise: 00:01:25

It looks a little bit different from our normal podcast.

Louise: 00:01:28

For those people listening to the podcast and not watching it, we're actually in

Louise: 00:01:33

one of the offices in your building.

Andy: 00:01:36

You are.

Andy: 00:01:36

Well, thank you, Louise, for having me on.

Andy: 00:01:39

And welcome to the Greater Manchester Combined Authority,

Andy: 00:01:41

because that's where you are.

Louise: 00:01:42

Ah, thank you.

Louise: 00:01:43

I wondered.

Andy: 00:01:44

And yeah, this is a makeshift studio, isn't it?

Andy: 00:01:47

Right above Oxford Street, just as it becomes Oxford Road.

Louise: 00:01:50

Yeah, so there'll also be a few buses going up and down.

Andy: 00:01:53

There might be, and I'll be checking whether they're on

Andy: 00:01:55

time as I see them come past.

Louise: 00:01:58

And checking whether they're one of the amazing yellow buses.

Andy: 00:02:01

Yes, so one of the biggest changes that I've overseen since becoming mayor is

Andy: 00:02:06

putting buses back under public control.

Andy: 00:02:09

But hopefully for those in Greater Manchester who've experienced the

Andy: 00:02:12

yellow buses, I think they're quite a step up when it comes to older

Andy: 00:02:17

people, people living with dementia.

Louise: 00:02:19

So transport close to your heart.

Louise: 00:02:22

We're actually here to talk about caring, um, because this podcast is, is made by

Louise: 00:02:28

carers for carers about being a carer.

Louise: 00:02:31

And Is that a subject that's close to your heart?

Andy: 00:02:35

Yes, it is.

Andy: 00:02:36

Um, professionally, um, because when I was health secretary, uh, God, I'm

Andy: 00:02:43

showing my age now, uh, 15 years ago.

Andy: 00:02:45

I was persuaded of the need to do something radical in this space back then.

Andy: 00:02:50

I've always been persuaded ever since.

Andy: 00:02:51

So I've kept that professional interest, but I'm now of an age in

Andy: 00:02:56

my 50s where I've, uh, seen, um, care services myself because of one of

Andy: 00:03:03

my parents, um, uh, having dementia.

Andy: 00:03:06

That reinforces, I think, many of my kind of, uh, professional instincts about

Andy: 00:03:11

why this issue should have been given a much higher priority many years ago.

Louise: 00:03:15

So can I ask a little bit about your family and how, um, who,

Louise: 00:03:19

who is it who has dementia and what kind, how's it impacted on them?

Andy: 00:03:23

Yeah, so my dad has got Alzheimer's and, um, you know, it's been a really

Andy: 00:03:27

tough journey the last few years, my dad had some cancer treatment in the, uh,

Andy: 00:03:33

in the sort of back end of the pandemic.

Andy: 00:03:35

And it felt to me as though that accelerated things.

Andy: 00:03:39

And I, I wonder whether that's something that we need more public information

Andy: 00:03:45

about how, if you have physical treatment for something, it can have that.

Andy: 00:03:50

impact on, uh, on your sort of mental wellbeing.

Andy: 00:03:55

And it seemed as though it did, uh, to me.

Andy: 00:03:58

Um, and in retrospect, as a family, I'm not sure we would have, you

Andy: 00:04:03

know, we would have maybe made some different choices with my dad.

Louise: 00:04:06

So there were no signs of dementia or anything like that prior to, because I

Louise: 00:04:11

had a similar experience during lockdown.

Louise: 00:04:13

Mum fell and her undiagnosed dementia was on the radar because

Louise: 00:04:18

she had to have a hip replacement.

Louise: 00:04:20

I kind of already had a feeling that she, that she had memory problems

Louise: 00:04:24

and there was lots of signs that she couldn't really cope and live on her own.

Louise: 00:04:26

But you're saying your dad, wasn't showing any signs.

Andy: 00:04:29

Not to me and my brothers.

Andy: 00:04:31

Maybe my mum was sort of picking up the first signs, but not, not to us.

Andy: 00:04:35

And the treatment he had was for prostate cancer.

Andy: 00:04:38

And it's a very intensive, you know, short burst of treatment every day.

Andy: 00:04:42

So it kind of takes a physical toll.

Andy: 00:04:45

Um, and it, it just seems to me that those two things were connected and we hadn't

Andy: 00:04:51

thought through that there may be other implications beyond the, the treatment.

Andy: 00:04:55

I think that is a real problem with, uh, kind of the system that we've got.

Andy: 00:05:00

I love the health service.

Andy: 00:05:01

I will defend it to my dying day, but it is a, uh, uh, you know, an overly

Andy: 00:05:06

medical, overly treatment based service.

Andy: 00:05:09

And it, it looks at physical health more than it looks at mental health.

Andy: 00:05:12

And I, and I do think those are sort of quite 20th century notions.

Andy: 00:05:17

And I think in the 21st century, as we look at the, uh, full complexity

Andy: 00:05:22

of an aging society, we have to rethink and recalibrate, I think,

Andy: 00:05:27

how you look after the whole person.

Louise: 00:05:29

I mean, that's really interesting because as a carer and

Louise: 00:05:32

particularly a carer for dementia.

Louise: 00:05:35

A lot of the services overlap and sometimes it can be a complete mystery.

Louise: 00:05:39

In fact, I've been doing it for three years and I'll be honest,

Louise: 00:05:41

I don't really know how it works.

Louise: 00:05:43

It sort of works, but I just don't know how all the different

Louise: 00:05:47

pieces of the jigsaw fit together.

Louise: 00:05:48

And some aspects of caring for my mum with her dementia are handled

Louise: 00:05:54

by the NHS and some by social care and some in the community.

Louise: 00:05:58

I think it's just so complex the way it all fits together.

Andy: 00:06:01

It's so complex.

Andy: 00:06:03

Yeah, I think what I would say is it, it sometimes can just about

Andy: 00:06:07

work for people, but that very much depends on people's circumstances and

Andy: 00:06:12

their family situation, doesn't it?

Andy: 00:06:14

But there are many people for whom it really does not work.

Andy: 00:06:16

In my dad's case, um, something came through, uh, towards the point where

Andy: 00:06:24

he was moving towards residential care that, you know, I think needs a,

Andy: 00:06:30

needs a political response and it's the whole question of a domiciliary

Andy: 00:06:35

care service that really is just not set up to, to, to do what it should

Andy: 00:06:40

do and actually be preventative in terms of the support that it provides.

Andy: 00:06:45

And it's this kind of 15 minute visit culture, isn't it?

Andy: 00:06:48

And the rush you, you,

Louise: 00:06:49

Yeah.

Andy: 00:06:50

My dad was in a position where with a little time and a bit of patience,

Andy: 00:06:55

he could have been kind of moved from where he was to a position where he

Andy: 00:06:59

was comfortable for the rest of the day and then that would have been something

Andy: 00:07:03

that, you know, my mum could have managed and, and it would have been acceptable.

Andy: 00:07:08

But it's not like that, is it?

Andy: 00:07:09

It was a rush and it was, and if my dad wasn't being

Andy: 00:07:12

cooperative, as we experienced.

Andy: 00:07:16

What happened repeatedly was a kind of, uh, kind of rush from

Andy: 00:07:23

some of the carers who came in to say, well, we have to ring 999 now.

Louise: 00:07:27

Wow.

Louise: 00:07:28

Straight to 999.

Andy: 00:07:29

Straight.

Andy: 00:07:29

Um, you know, yeah.

Andy: 00:07:31

And it, you know, I knew there was an element of this that goes on.

Louise: 00:07:35

Yeah.

Andy: 00:07:36

You know, it's particularly sort of these, some of these small

Andy: 00:07:40

care companies who just don't want any liability for any of it.

Andy: 00:07:42

They have the 50 minute visit structure.

Andy: 00:07:44

That's how they're commissioned.

Andy: 00:07:45

And anything that's a problem outside of that, well, We're not going to be

Andy: 00:07:49

liable, therefore, you know, and it was a difficult for my mum who often had to talk

Andy: 00:07:55

them out of ringing, she was ringing 999.

Andy: 00:07:57

She was saying, well, no, it's not good for my husband, but it's going

Andy: 00:08:01

to be terrible for the NHS as well.

Andy: 00:08:03

And you know, every level to lose, lose for everybody.

Andy: 00:08:06

Um, it was not a one off.

Andy: 00:08:08

It happened, uh, on a number of occasions, you know, one or two

Andy: 00:08:13

where I kind of got involved.

Andy: 00:08:14

And, if you aggregate it up, I mean, that's just our family experience.

Andy: 00:08:18

I think every day across England, there will be significant numbers of very,

Andy: 00:08:26

um, very vulnerable people going into hospitals and ambulances who actually

Andy: 00:08:32

don't need to be in that position.

Andy: 00:08:34

If just a little more time was given to settling people in their environment,

Andy: 00:08:41

given that the transition from waking up in the morning to a position where

Andy: 00:08:46

they can be comfortable for the day is actually a complicated transition.

Andy: 00:08:49

It's not a simple set of tasks.

Andy: 00:08:52

It can be different one day from the next day.

Andy: 00:08:54

And this is obviously a learning thing for us as a family.

Louise: 00:08:57

Yeah, totally.

Louise: 00:08:58

I had that experience of the 15 minute care culture.

Louise: 00:09:02

So when mum was discharged from hospital, her social worker was

Louise: 00:09:06

prepared to let me take over as full time carer, as long as there was some

Louise: 00:09:11

professional personal care happening.

Louise: 00:09:13

And I think that's because mum really resisted that and when she was being

Louise: 00:09:17

looked after in hospital, and then later in a care home environment,

Louise: 00:09:20

and I knew she would resist it from me because I'm her daughter.

Louise: 00:09:23

I'm not supposed to be washing her.

Louise: 00:09:24

It's meant to be the other way around.

Louise: 00:09:26

And so she just didn't want to, you know, there was a battle and I was worried that

Louise: 00:09:30

she, you know, would fall in the shower.

Louise: 00:09:33

I wasn't qualified or trained for this.

Louise: 00:09:34

I'm, you know, an unpaid family carer.

Louise: 00:09:36

I'm not, I'm not, I'm not able to do this, but I didn't know

Louise: 00:09:39

where to find a care company.

Louise: 00:09:40

I didn't really know how it works.

Louise: 00:09:41

And, you know, this is.

Louise: 00:09:42

When caring comes upon you just like that, you don't know.

Louise: 00:09:46

So the social worker in the hospital said they would make some inquiries

Louise: 00:09:49

and find, find a care company.

Louise: 00:09:52

And so they appointed a company that would do normal kind of council

Louise: 00:09:56

contracts, which is the 15 minute culture.

Louise: 00:09:59

That was really difficult because, you know, not only is it, are the

Louise: 00:10:02

carers under a lot of pressure.

Louise: 00:10:04

I think they call it a run.

Louise: 00:10:05

They go from, they go from job to job to job to job.

Louise: 00:10:08

But.

Louise: 00:10:09

As recipients of the care that it's also changeable.

Louise: 00:10:13

You, you know, you, you've got a window when they're supposed to come.

Andy: 00:10:16

Yeah.

Andy: 00:10:16

You can't,

Louise: 00:10:17

and they don't.

Andy: 00:10:17

Make it a production line like that can you?

Andy: 00:10:20

And it's no criticism of those carers, by the way.

Andy: 00:10:22

I I, you know, some of them are just unbelievable that people, aren't they?

Andy: 00:10:26

And yeah, the fact that they still do it given the treatment they get, the pay,

Andy: 00:10:30

the lack of respect for what they do.

Andy: 00:10:32

And it's a really skilled thing that they It is.

Andy: 00:10:36

That they do.

Louise: 00:10:36

It is.

Andy: 00:10:37

And society just doesn't.

Andy: 00:10:39

sort of recognise that properly, but I think, you know, the issue is in what

Andy: 00:10:45

you said about the company that was appointed, you know, I just take the

Andy: 00:10:51

view that this whole area does not sit well with a sort of very formulaic,

Andy: 00:10:57

you know, production line, private sector, drive out the inefficiency type.

Andy: 00:11:02

It just doesn't, you know, it's, it's, it's classic territory for the public

Andy: 00:11:06

sector for me, because you can't commoditise care like that, you know,

Andy: 00:11:10

there's a 15 minute visit and that's it.

Andy: 00:11:13

It just doesn't work.

Andy: 00:11:14

And because the thing is, you know, it doesn't provide what the NHS needs.

Andy: 00:11:18

The NHS needs people who can be supported in their homes to stay in their homes.

Andy: 00:11:24

And that's best, that's better for everybody.

Andy: 00:11:27

And also, staff who are trained properly.

Andy: 00:11:31

paid properly with the right terms of secure employment and able to do that

Andy: 00:11:37

capable first line of defense, if you like, in terms of supporting people.

Andy: 00:11:41

And instead it's the opposite, isn't it?

Andy: 00:11:43

You know, zero hours contracts, poverty pay, to be honest, that's what it is.

Andy: 00:11:48

And it's amazing that it does kind of hold together for some people just,

Andy: 00:11:51

and the reason it does is because of the goodwill of some of those

Andy: 00:11:54

people who will sort of make it work.

Louise: 00:11:57

How did your mum find it?

Louise: 00:11:58

Tell me, tell me how she coped with that caring role.

Andy: 00:12:01

At it's best.

Louise: 00:12:02

Primary carer, she was the main carer for you.

Andy: 00:12:04

Yes, absolutely.

Andy: 00:12:06

And at it's best, it really worked.

Andy: 00:12:09

And, you know, she got to know some fantastic people, um, who supported

Andy: 00:12:14

my dad and I'm sure she would forever be grateful she'd say that.

Andy: 00:12:20

And the issue came as things got more difficult.

Andy: 00:12:23

That's where

Andy: 00:12:24

the

Andy: 00:12:24

issue came.

Andy: 00:12:25

And there was no reflection again on the people who were coming

Andy: 00:12:28

in to try and help, help him.

Andy: 00:12:30

None at all.

Andy: 00:12:31

You know, they're quite the opposite.

Andy: 00:12:32

In fact, it became an issue of the system in which they are asked to work.

Andy: 00:12:37

I.

Andy: 00:12:37

e., if there's a problem.

Andy: 00:12:40

and there was a problem some days around my dad cooperating and, you

Andy: 00:12:44

know, doing what was asked of him.

Andy: 00:12:48

If there was a problem immediately, it just wasn't supportive to her

Andy: 00:12:53

because then it became stressful.

Andy: 00:12:55

And that was then she would ring me or my brother or, you know, my other brother.

Andy: 00:13:00

And It was adding to a burden on her, not taking one away.

Andy: 00:13:03

And that was when it became completely counterproductive.

Andy: 00:13:08

So I think there's a level at which a very basic 15 minute model with very

Andy: 00:13:14

mild needs can work, but it quickly doesn't work in a situation where the

Andy: 00:13:21

needs are moderate or more severe.

Andy: 00:13:22

To be honest, I'm amazed that my mum managed it all for as long as she did.

Andy: 00:13:29

And it was a.

Andy: 00:13:31

a wonderful moment.

Andy: 00:13:32

My dad's in a great care home.

Andy: 00:13:35

Um, the organization who run it is called Nugent Care.

Andy: 00:13:38

And they're, uh, I think their origins are as a Catholic, uh, care charity.

Andy: 00:13:43

And, you know, that is very right for my mum and by extension, my dad, who's not

Andy: 00:13:48

particularly religious, but my mom is, and, but it just works, it works for her.

Andy: 00:13:53

I, um, remember one of the early visits that we did.

Andy: 00:13:56

And one of the.

Andy: 00:13:57

Uh, carers who work in the home said, God, how did you manage all of this so long?

Andy: 00:14:01

'cause my mom had, I think, a feeling of guilt.

Andy: 00:14:04

Oh, when that change had happened.

Louise: 00:14:06

I'll bet.

Andy: 00:14:07

And I saw the change in her face when the carers said that to her.

Andy: 00:14:11

You know, it is, it's really hard, isn't it?

Andy: 00:14:14

And the feel, you know, I, you know, when, when you say, do I do

Andy: 00:14:18

I, uh, look, sound like I care?

Andy: 00:14:20

Well.

Andy: 00:14:22

You know, for people who are carers like my mum, the mix of emotions that

Andy: 00:14:28

are going round all the time, the lack of sleep, um, the kind of everything

Andy: 00:14:36

in terms of how you hold it together is, is almost beyond belief, isn't it?

Andy: 00:14:41

And I've seen that, uh, in my own experience.

Andy: 00:14:44

And, You know, the fact that people do hold it together, but the failure of

Andy: 00:14:49

the system is putting undue pressure and feelings of guilt and you name it

Andy: 00:14:56

on, on people who actually are, are, are working beyond wonders, aren't they?

Andy: 00:15:01

In terms of what they are managing to do.

Louise: 00:15:03

It sounds like your mum also had support from you and your brothers.

Louise: 00:15:07

You talk about us, we, you're very, you seem very hands

Louise: 00:15:11

on, very involved in, in it.

Louise: 00:15:13

What was your particular journey through, through the caring experience then?

Louise: 00:15:18

How have you found it?

Andy: 00:15:20

It's been, uh, I've been a hard journey.

Andy: 00:15:24

I mean, and I, if I'm honest, I mean, I've, I've played my part, but my

Andy: 00:15:28

other brothers, both of them are in very senior positions in education.

Andy: 00:15:31

I mean, one of my eldest brother has probably been more done more than I

Andy: 00:15:36

have, but I tried to, you know, be part of the team and I have been.

Andy: 00:15:42

But, you know, perhaps, you know, not having the same capacity as, as, as

Andy: 00:15:48

the others to, to help, like, it's just been, uh, you know, kind of a

Andy: 00:15:52

really difficult journey, you know, where you kind of see the change and

Andy: 00:15:56

that first time you see that change.

Andy: 00:15:58

I can remember now the first time I, my dad said something to me and I remember.

Andy: 00:16:04

the shock of it, you know, realising that something was really

Andy: 00:16:07

changing within, you know, in him.

Andy: 00:16:09

And it was, yeah, that is a bit of a trauma, isn't it?

Andy: 00:16:13

That you then have to deal with and just then all of it really,

Andy: 00:16:17

you know, the kind of progression.

Louise: 00:16:19

What did he say?

Louise: 00:16:20

What was, what was the thing that shocked you?

Louise: 00:16:21

Cause it's surprising.

Andy: 00:16:23

That he could see something outside and he kept saying to me, could I see it?

Andy: 00:16:26

And I kept saying, you know, and I, I, um, yeah.

Louise: 00:16:28

Yeah.

Louise: 00:16:29

Those kind of hallucinations, the delirium, that's the kind of thing.

Andy: 00:16:32

That was a really hard thing.

Andy: 00:16:33

And then there's the whole thing.

Andy: 00:16:34

I mean, this is slightly, it's like my dad's a lifelong Evertonian and

Andy: 00:16:38

he inflicted this, uh, uh, sort of burden on, uh, on me and Nick and John.

Andy: 00:16:45

And, you know, in those stages.

Andy: 00:16:48

We were still taking him with us, uh, to, to, uh, watch Everton.

Andy: 00:16:53

But Everton being in a, a relegation battle, as they have been for the last

Andy: 00:16:56

few years, it was all like a, I don't know, we all kind of started to feel the

Andy: 00:16:59

sort of the weight of it all, you know, kind of everything around us was these

Andy: 00:17:04

institutions and things were changing and not necessarily for the better.

Andy: 00:17:08

And it all became, but, you know, eventually then he, we had to,

Andy: 00:17:12

stop taking him and that was a bit of a, bit of a thing as well.

Louise: 00:17:16

Yeah, landmark moment really.

Andy: 00:17:18

Yeah, I think.

Andy: 00:17:21

What I've discovered is your fifties are quite hard, aren't they?

Louise: 00:17:24

Ooph they really are!

Andy: 00:17:25

For those, if you have parents and kids, not everybody does.

Andy: 00:17:29

No, and firstly, I should say, not everybody is blessed to be

Andy: 00:17:32

in that situation, are they?

Andy: 00:17:33

And, you know, that's, and I keep saying all the time that we're blessed in so

Andy: 00:17:37

many, so many ways and we are, and, and, you know, I always will acknowledge that.

Andy: 00:17:42

However, there does come a point in life, isn't it?

Andy: 00:17:45

Where you have.

Andy: 00:17:46

Yeah.

Andy: 00:17:47

Kids in their late teenage, early twenties years, and all of that involves and

Andy: 00:17:51

mm-Hmm.

Andy: 00:17:51

you know,

Andy: 00:17:52

supporting your, your mom and dad as well.

Andy: 00:17:54

It's a, it's a, it's a tougher decade.

Louise: 00:17:56

It is, it is.

Andy: 00:17:56

Than I count counting on it being,

Louise: 00:17:58

I know they talk about that.

Louise: 00:18:00

Technically that's known as a sandwich carer.

Louise: 00:18:02

So you've got, you've got your two lots of care and you are in the

Louise: 00:18:05

middle,

Andy: 00:18:05

as I say, and I'm, I'm getting off lightly if you like, but it's

Andy: 00:18:08

not a great phrase to use, but you know what I mean when I say that.

Louise: 00:18:11

You sound pretty involved to me, considering you're the

Louise: 00:18:14

Mayor of Greater Manchester.

Louise: 00:18:15

I would have thought you wouldn't have two minutes to do anything.

Andy: 00:18:18

No, we're a close family and we never wouldn't be any other way.

Andy: 00:18:23

And I do what I, you know, I try and offer to Nick and John what I can, I know I can

Andy: 00:18:27

do, and we've all done things together.

Andy: 00:18:29

And I've, you know, taken my mum to the things that, you know, I know would be

Andy: 00:18:34

beneficial to, to her as part of it.

Andy: 00:18:36

Cause that's a really important part of it as well, isn't it?

Andy: 00:18:38

The sort of respite of, well, just events, you know, that, that, that.

Andy: 00:18:42

you know, I know she would enjoy.

Andy: 00:18:44

So,

Andy: 00:18:45

yeah, you

Andy: 00:18:45

know, that's, uh,

Louise: 00:18:46

Respite is really, really important.

Louise: 00:18:48

And, um, you know, sometimes it's just time to do something for yourself as a

Louise: 00:18:52

carer or just to feel like your old self.

Louise: 00:18:54

So if it was something that you used to enjoy and you just

Louise: 00:18:57

can't get out of the house to do

Andy: 00:18:58

Massively so.

Louise: 00:18:59

And it can be just such a boost that gets you through the next

Andy: 00:19:02

Circumstances, you know, Yeah.

Andy: 00:19:04

Yeah.

Andy: 00:19:05

Different.

Andy: 00:19:05

Yeah.

Andy: 00:19:06

Sort of scene.

Andy: 00:19:07

Yeah.

Andy: 00:19:07

So we've, we've, yeah, we've all, we've all, um, we've all

Andy: 00:19:10

cared in one way or another.

Louise: 00:19:12

Because a lot of carers will ring their children, you know, a lot

Louise: 00:19:14

of carers and parents will ring their children in, in their fifties when

Louise: 00:19:18

they, they need help with the caring and they'll say, Oh, can you help me?

Louise: 00:19:21

You know, I need, I need some help with this.

Louise: 00:19:23

When your mum rings you, does she expect you to pull some strings at work ever?

Andy: 00:19:28

No, no, no, no, not, not, not like that.

Louise: 00:19:32

Oh, that's a shame.

Andy: 00:19:35

Well, she did ring me once.

Andy: 00:19:38

I was in, um, I've been on, I think I'm trying to remember when exactly this

Andy: 00:19:41

was, I've been on the Laura Kuenssberg programme, uh, on a Sunday and I'd, I'd

Andy: 00:19:47

ended up staying in London cause I had some things happening on the Monday.

Andy: 00:19:50

And I remember that Monday morning, you know, was it like half seven,

Andy: 00:19:57

mum calling, I was like, Oh my God.

Andy: 00:19:59

And the, my dad was having a situation, but Nick and John were just not available.

Louise: 00:20:05

Right.

Andy: 00:20:06

And I think that was the moment that.

Andy: 00:20:08

It was the first moment that that had happened when none of us were available.

Andy: 00:20:13

Yeah, and up to that point, fortuitously, someone had always been around.

Andy: 00:20:18

Okay, I'll pop, I'll come over.

Louise: 00:20:19

What help was she asking for?

Andy: 00:20:21

It was because, well, my dad was just uncooperative,

Andy: 00:20:24

and the carers had arrived, and they were saying, we can't deal with this.

Andy: 00:20:28

And I think it was one of those 999 type things.

Andy: 00:20:31

But then we just, yeah.

Andy: 00:20:32

And we'd always been the kind of family that said, you know, we

Andy: 00:20:35

wouldn't ever want to see any of us go into a care home and that

Andy: 00:20:38

wouldn't be us and we would manage it.

Andy: 00:20:40

I remember as health secretary saying things like, you know, some ways we don't.

Andy: 00:20:44

We don't necessarily want residential care, we should be looking at a

Andy: 00:20:46

future of care all in the home.

Andy: 00:20:48

And I think that's possible, but only if you had a completely

Andy: 00:20:52

different social care system.

Andy: 00:20:54

It could be done, but you'd have to really massively increase

Andy: 00:20:58

the resources available to it.

Andy: 00:21:00

So the reality is it's not possible, is it, in the current,

Andy: 00:21:03

uh, in the current world.

Andy: 00:21:05

And, you know, I can now see the hugely important role that

Andy: 00:21:09

residential care, care plays.

Louise: 00:21:11

Yeah,

Andy: 00:21:12

because also I see the improvement in my dad since he went in.

Louise: 00:21:14

Oh, yeah.

Andy: 00:21:15

Yeah.

Andy: 00:21:15

Yeah.

Andy: 00:21:15

There's quite a significant, you know, he's much more settled and he's and yeah,

Andy: 00:21:23

and more capacity, more capacity has come back, which is, which is amazing.

Andy: 00:21:27

Yeah.

Louise: 00:21:28

That's great.

Andy: 00:21:28

Yeah, it's a real positive.

Louise: 00:21:29

And that's really comforting, I think, for carers to hear, because

Louise: 00:21:32

they might want to just keep trying and trying and trying, especially with

Louise: 00:21:35

dementia, and especially as well, I guess, with your, if it's your husband

Louise: 00:21:39

or your wife or your lifelong partner, because we're caring for our parents,

Louise: 00:21:43

which kind of feels, even though it's not the natural order, we've become the

Louise: 00:21:47

parent, effectively, that kind of feels like a completely different relationship

Louise: 00:21:52

in terms of the person that you've spent your life with and our parents got married

Louise: 00:21:57

for life and took those vows seriously.

Andy: 00:22:00

That's part of the hard bit of this, isn't it?

Andy: 00:22:01

I was saying to you before about in your 50s it gets hard because you

Andy: 00:22:05

have to then do things that you never imagined yourself having to do to look

Andy: 00:22:10

after you, your dad, you know, you're in situations that you, you would have

Andy: 00:22:15

kind of recoiled that wouldn't you, but

Andy: 00:22:17

you, you know what I mean when I'm saying that.

Andy: 00:22:19

So, but it has to be done, but that's another.

Andy: 00:22:22

another adjustment, isn't it?

Andy: 00:22:23

But, you know, I'm also conscious though that, you know, I'm describing a situation

Andy: 00:22:28

here as though, you know, this is all uniquely difficult, but it's not, is it?

Andy: 00:22:33

Because there are some people who are carers all of their lives, aren't they?

Andy: 00:22:37

In terms of

Louise: 00:22:38

Yes

Andy: 00:22:39

um.

Andy: 00:22:40

carers for parents with disabilities or kids with disabilities.

Louise: 00:22:44

Yeah.

Andy: 00:22:44

And I was just quite struck actually by something I was looking at yesterday,

Andy: 00:22:48

is it kind of stood out a little in the kind of, frenetic exchanges of the

Andy: 00:22:53

general election campaign, Ed Davey opening up about some of his caring life.

Andy: 00:22:59

And I thought that was really great of him to do that actually,

Andy: 00:23:02

I thought it was a really, uh, important thing that he'd, he'd done.

Andy: 00:23:06

I mean, cause I, you think twice about talking personally about these things

Andy: 00:23:10

as a politician, because you think, well, do people think I'm looking for

Andy: 00:23:14

sympathy or votes or something from this?

Andy: 00:23:16

And you're not, I mean, the politicians use this to.

Andy: 00:23:20

to kind of raise these issues up the, up the agenda and give visibility to

Andy: 00:23:24

the people who are often feeling hidden.

Andy: 00:23:27

And I thought, you know, that, that's why I would talk about it.

Andy: 00:23:30

But, and I kind of also saw that Ed Davey was doing something

Andy: 00:23:33

really, really important.

Andy: 00:23:34

I don't know if you saw the video that he's posted, but I thought it was,

Andy: 00:23:38

it, it was really great, actually.

Andy: 00:23:39

It was really touching, but it was really fantastic.

Andy: 00:23:42

And we kind of need more of that in the political domain, not kind of doing it.

Andy: 00:23:47

And therefore vote for me because it's much more about, okay, we,

Andy: 00:23:51

we understand this reality, we see it, we, we appreciate it.

Louise: 00:23:55

Yeah.

Andy: 00:23:56

What can collectively we do about it?

Louise: 00:23:58

Yeah.

Louise: 00:23:58

Yeah.

Louise: 00:23:59

It seemed to have a lot of empathy because he's he's experienced and

Louise: 00:24:02

you know, there's no substitute for being care experienced

Andy: 00:24:04

Well I didn't know that about him I'll be honest.

Andy: 00:24:07

No, no, no, it was a revelation to me.

Andy: 00:24:09

So I just didn't know and yeah, I think this is the sort of world we're

Andy: 00:24:14

in now where politicians I think increasingly shut that stuff off

Andy: 00:24:18

because of social media and a comment.

Andy: 00:24:20

Yes we can we will you know deal with any of the most I don't know,

Andy: 00:24:26

vicious comments about us that, you know, we're used to that.

Andy: 00:24:29

You know, we, we, we've got an armour to deal with that.

Andy: 00:24:31

But I, I know nearly all the politicians I know when people do that about family,

Andy: 00:24:37

then it's like, you know, different level and you really can't cope with that.

Andy: 00:24:42

So opening up that side of things is a, you know, and, and I think

Andy: 00:24:46

sometimes I've, truthfully politicians stray away from this territory

Andy: 00:24:50

for those, for those reasons, they just don't want to even open up.

Andy: 00:24:53

that sort of side of them to anything.

Louise: 00:24:56

I think it's not just politicians either, because there is

Louise: 00:25:00

a kind of stigma around being a carer.

Louise: 00:25:02

I know that sounds crazy, but because it's, um, it's undervalued and because

Louise: 00:25:07

you're a bit invisible, it's linked with a lot of poverty and financial problems.

Louise: 00:25:12

And if you're doing it and you're trying to stay in work, you don't want it

Louise: 00:25:15

to, it to be seen as a disadvantage.

Andy: 00:25:17

Yeah, you don't want to necessarily, sort of come in and say,

Andy: 00:25:20

oh, woe is me because of X, Y and Z.

Louise: 00:25:22

Or be overlooked for some, an opportunity because you've got this big

Louise: 00:25:25

caring burden or your, or your colleagues have to pick up the slack for you.

Andy: 00:25:29

If I look at it and I hear what you say, and I know that

Andy: 00:25:32

applies, what you've just said to millions of people in Britain.

Andy: 00:25:35

So we're not, we're not talking small numbers, are we?

Louise: 00:25:37

No, I mean, is it 5.

Louise: 00:25:39

7 million carers, uh, 1.

Louise: 00:25:41

5 million, more than 50 hours a week?

Andy: 00:25:44

And beyond those numbers, there are people like me, I

Andy: 00:25:47

wouldn't necessarily call myself a carer although I have, would I?

Andy: 00:25:51

I don't know.

Andy: 00:25:51

It's interesting that.

Louise: 00:25:52

Interesting.

Andy: 00:25:53

Maybe I am now.

Andy: 00:25:54

I don't, you know, well, maybe was for a bit, but now my dad's

Andy: 00:25:58

in residential care, maybe not.

Andy: 00:26:00

So, you know, anyway, you, there's levels of caring, isn't there?

Andy: 00:26:03

Let me put it that way.

Louise: 00:26:04

Care experienced.

Louise: 00:26:05

Yeah.

Louise: 00:26:05

Yeah.

Andy: 00:26:05

Beyond that 5 million, I think there'll probably, well,

Andy: 00:26:08

there's more on the fringes of caring, if I can put it that way.

Andy: 00:26:11

But also those young carers, you know, I always, I often think about,

Andy: 00:26:15

you know, of all the caring jobs, I mean, you know, we can sort of say

Andy: 00:26:20

how hard it is in your fifties, but my God, if you're a young carer looking

Andy: 00:26:23

after parents in your teenage years, that is, well, that's just something

Andy: 00:26:29

that is utterly heroic, is it not?

Andy: 00:26:31

You know, for those and what, what they do and how hidden

Andy: 00:26:35

they are from everyone's view.

Andy: 00:26:37

And the thing that just makes me feel, and this great conversation

Andy: 00:26:41

is bringing out this feeling again.

Andy: 00:26:44

People like myself really should be embarrassed about it in terms of the

Andy: 00:26:48

lack of visibility that all of this has in the political debate and the

Andy: 00:26:52

lack of visibility that those millions of people have in political discourse.

Andy: 00:26:56

What does that say to those people who are just out there and they never hear

Andy: 00:27:00

themselves talked about, they never hear themselves sort of being prioritised in

Andy: 00:27:05

the political discourse and this pattern, I'm afraid, just keeps on, on repeating.

Andy: 00:27:12

Yeah, I accept my responsibility in that.

Andy: 00:27:14

I mean I as I said before I did try and do something but have I done enough?

Andy: 00:27:19

No, and I don't think any politician has I think there's a real and I'll call it

Andy: 00:27:23

as it is I'm afraid in my generation of politicians there's a complete cowardice

Andy: 00:27:28

on these issues, cowardice and it's a sort of kind of thing about yeah The

Andy: 00:27:34

focus groups don't raise it, therefore never touch it, you don't need to.

Andy: 00:27:38

It's, it only becomes an issue about tax and you don't want to get an issue.

Andy: 00:27:41

And there's a sort of a, this sort of modern politics has just, has developed

Andy: 00:27:45

a framing of the way it deals with things that just has this outside of it.

Louise: 00:27:49

Wow.

Andy: 00:27:49

And it's, yeah, it is a wow thing because it is that bad.

Andy: 00:27:52

I mean, I've lived it.

Andy: 00:27:54

I mean, bear in mind, I lived it trying to raise social care in Whitehall.

Louise: 00:27:57

Yeah.

Andy: 00:27:57

And it made me an outsider for even trying to do something.

Louise: 00:28:00

So what was your plan that you were trying to raise,

Louise: 00:28:03

just for those that don't know?

Louise: 00:28:04

In fact, for me, because I don't think I fully know, were you trying to integrate?

Louise: 00:28:08

Tell me, tell me exactly.

Andy: 00:28:10

I was indeed.

Andy: 00:28:10

I mean, I was, in very simple terms, I was making the argument for social

Andy: 00:28:16

care to be provided on NHS terms.

Louise: 00:28:19

What does that mean exactly?

Andy: 00:28:20

So, um, free, at the point of use.

Louise: 00:28:24

Wow.

Louise: 00:28:24

That would be great.

Andy: 00:28:25

Uh, a national care service, I called it at the time, but what

Andy: 00:28:29

I was kind of make the argument for was whether you have it as a national

Andy: 00:28:32

care service alongside a national health service or whether you have

Andy: 00:28:34

a national health and care service.

Andy: 00:28:37

What I was saying was you have a continuum of care on

Andy: 00:28:40

NHS terms that goes from home to hospital and back again and is

Andy: 00:28:44

about the whole, the whole person.

Andy: 00:28:47

So you look at people's physical, mental and social needs as one and not as

Andy: 00:28:52

the current system tries to do: deal with physical needs in one place and

Andy: 00:28:56

mental in another, and then social in a completely different system altogether.

Andy: 00:29:00

That's what I was, what I was saying.

Andy: 00:29:02

And I made the argument that rather than be exposed to unlimited care costs,

Andy: 00:29:07

well I say unlimited, you know, can be pretty much unlimited down to that

Andy: 00:29:11

threshold of £23,000, whatever it is.

Andy: 00:29:14

I was saying that nobody should pay any care charges while they're alive.

Andy: 00:29:20

but what we should do in return.

Andy: 00:29:22

Um, is have a modest contribution from what they leave behind that is

Andy: 00:29:28

a percentage contribution linked to what they, linked to what they have.

Andy: 00:29:31

Um, and therefore nobody would, you wouldn't get the randomness of the

Andy: 00:29:37

system where some people like, you know, like my dad or someone else

Andy: 00:29:40

who's unlucky enough to get quite severe dementia and Alzheimer's.

Andy: 00:29:44

Well, they get wiped out completely, don't they by the current system?

Louise: 00:29:48

Savings wise, you mean?

Andy: 00:29:49

Yeah.

Louise: 00:29:49

Financially.

Andy: 00:29:50

And then somebody just doesn't have that, isn't wiped out.

Andy: 00:29:54

And I was saying, you know, that social care in England is as unfair

Andy: 00:29:57

as US healthcare, because it just takes people out randomly, doesn't it?

Andy: 00:30:01

Linked to how unfortunate they are.

Andy: 00:30:03

And I was saying that's completely counter to the NHS principle.

Louise: 00:30:07

Yeah.

Andy: 00:30:07

And until we have a system in this country that supports people

Andy: 00:30:11

with dementia, as well as it supports and treats people with cancer, then

Andy: 00:30:15

we haven't got a we haven't got a fair system in the 21st century.

Andy: 00:30:20

But when I put that forward, the idea of a, of a care levy,

Louise: 00:30:24

okay

Andy: 00:30:25

um, from what people leave behind, you know, never don't put people through

Andy: 00:30:29

any of the indignity of selling homes and this and that and power of attorney or,

Andy: 00:30:33

you know, just leave all that, let people not have to deal with that stuff while

Andy: 00:30:38

they're caring because it's hard enough doing the caring never mind all of that.

Louise: 00:30:41

It is.

Andy: 00:30:42

And the paying and the dispiriting thing of just

Andy: 00:30:44

paying your parents savings out.

Andy: 00:30:46

Yeah

Louise: 00:30:46

Yeah.

Andy: 00:30:46

Leave all of that and then a modest contribution is taken from everybody

Andy: 00:30:51

And anyway that quickly became now Gordon wants a death tax from you at

Andy: 00:30:56

the 2010 election and it was a you know horrendously toxic, uh, political debate,

Andy: 00:31:04

and it made me a kind of outsider in my own side, as though I'd, I'd opened up an

Andy: 00:31:09

Achilles' heel, uh, at the election, and, uh, this is the sadness for me, you know,

Andy: 00:31:14

and I, you know, does today's generation of politicians have to wherewithal to

Andy: 00:31:19

advance big solutions to the things that are obviously wrong in our society.

Andy: 00:31:24

And, you know, I hope I can be proved wrong at some point, but I'm still

Andy: 00:31:28

worrying that today's political culture does not support that type of thinking.

Louise: 00:31:32

It doesn't, and I think that's what it needs.

Louise: 00:31:34

We talked about a carer feeling like there's all these different

Louise: 00:31:37

services, they're not joined up.

Louise: 00:31:38

Well, that would help with that problem that you have.

Louise: 00:31:41

I myself have been in that situation that you're talking about, where

Louise: 00:31:45

I ended up researching and finding a care company that actually will

Louise: 00:31:49

come for the, almost the full hour.

Andy: 00:31:52

Yeah.

Louise: 00:31:52

And their staff seemed to have that more that time and the

Louise: 00:31:55

patience and the, and what you were talking about that your mum needed.

Louise: 00:31:59

But in order to pay for that.

Louise: 00:32:01

Um, well, we have to pay for it because mum made the mistake of

Louise: 00:32:05

saving for her old age, I suppose, is what you, which that generation did.

Louise: 00:32:09

Um, and that's okay.

Louise: 00:32:12

It should go on her care.

Louise: 00:32:13

She made provision, but the cost of it is so extortionate that I don't

Louise: 00:32:18

know how sustainable that will be.

Louise: 00:32:19

And then what happens when she can't have it anymore?

Louise: 00:32:22

So there's all that worry.

Andy: 00:32:23

You get whittled down to that threshold, don't you?

Andy: 00:32:24

And then, and then you get state support.

Louise: 00:32:26

Then you go back onto the 15 minutes and then eventually,

Louise: 00:32:29

you know, that's, that's just going to end up with her in care.

Andy: 00:32:31

It doesn't work in any way, shape or form, does it?

Louise: 00:32:34

It doesn't.

Andy: 00:32:34

But even from that more economic point of view about, you

Andy: 00:32:37

know, it almost, you could say will increasingly create the wrong incentive.

Andy: 00:32:41

People say, well, I won't bother saving for my retirement

Andy: 00:32:44

because I might lose it all.

Andy: 00:32:45

Um, you know, I don't, I don't get, I don't get rewarded

Andy: 00:32:49

for having, having done that.

Andy: 00:32:51

So it's just not a sustainable situation, is it?

Andy: 00:32:54

And there's no solution for the NHS without a solution for social care.

Louise: 00:32:58

And the role of the unpaid family carer for sort of propping that up.

Louise: 00:33:02

I think there's been a lot of, there's a lot more stress on us.

Louise: 00:33:07

I mean, I've only been doing this for three years and there are people who've

Louise: 00:33:09

been caring out there for so much longer, like some people for their whole lifetime,

Louise: 00:33:13

as you say, or some people who've been certainly doing it longer than me and

Louise: 00:33:16

have seen a lot of changes but our role is important, but the, the, the

Louise: 00:33:22

pressure upon us then is, is made more so.

Andy: 00:33:25

But if you had a much more capable, responsive National Health and Care

Andy: 00:33:31

Service that would come in and provide heavy lifting type support in the home.

Andy: 00:33:36

Then I think carers would and

Andy: 00:33:38

would be supported to provide the extra bits of stuff that they then could do.

Andy: 00:33:42

And you could see how this thing could, could work.

Andy: 00:33:45

I'll never stop arguing for it.

Andy: 00:33:47

Never.

Andy: 00:33:47

I mean, I, uh, You know, I've only become stronger in my feeling that

Andy: 00:33:51

it's got to be done at some point.

Louise: 00:33:53

Well, I'd love that in my case, because I had to give up work,

Louise: 00:33:56

which was not something I wanted to do.

Louise: 00:33:59

But again, that sort of adds to burdens in other parts of the economy.

Andy: 00:34:03

Correct, it's a drag on the economy, eventually isn't it?

Andy: 00:34:06

With people, experienced people leaving the labour market.

Louise: 00:34:10

Again, in your 50s, there's been a huge exodus.

Andy: 00:34:14

Your experience, I think.

Andy: 00:34:17

It's valid.

Andy: 00:34:17

It's very relevant, isn't it?

Andy: 00:34:18

In that, you know, those people who had those difficult caring situations

Andy: 00:34:23

in the pandemic, some people decided, well, I won't be going back to work.

Andy: 00:34:26

I'll just try and make my whatever I've got now to support me.

Andy: 00:34:29

And yeah, I'll look at you.

Andy: 00:34:31

So there's been a loss of people in the labor market, hasn't there?

Andy: 00:34:34

And that has created an economic challenge.

Andy: 00:34:36

So it doesn't add up.

Andy: 00:34:39

Uh, you know.

Louise: 00:34:40

It's all linked.

Andy: 00:34:42

It is all linked.

Andy: 00:34:43

And I just think.

Andy: 00:34:46

The country needs a bit of a big sort of, you know, moment of, right, come at this

Andy: 00:34:53

a completely different, different way.

Louise: 00:34:55

What has it taught you?

Louise: 00:34:56

What has going through this, this journey with your dad and with your

Louise: 00:35:00

mum and being part of a family?

Louise: 00:35:02

And I think it takes a family to do this.

Louise: 00:35:04

Um, and, and, you know, your, your family sounds amazing.

Louise: 00:35:08

Not every, not all siblings get on.

Louise: 00:35:10

Not, you know, you might've had your moments.

Louise: 00:35:14

I don't know.

Louise: 00:35:15

I'm not going to pry, but...

Andy: 00:35:16

no no you know it's absolutely taught me that my brothers and my

Andy: 00:35:21

mum and my dad and we're, we're everything that we, we thought

Andy: 00:35:25

we were, if you know what I mean.

Andy: 00:35:26

So that's been, that's been, Uh, something obviously there's real

Andy: 00:35:29

positives in, in all of this.

Louise: 00:35:31

How is your mum doing now?

Andy: 00:35:34

Thanks for asking.

Andy: 00:35:37

Uh, I think the word would be recovering, I think.

Louise: 00:35:41

Yeah, definitely.

Andy: 00:35:42

Yeah.

Andy: 00:35:42

But, you know, brilliant in, in so many ways and, um, yeah, um, I, we keep telling

Andy: 00:35:49

her to be proud of what she managed to do.

Andy: 00:35:52

And, you know, we, we are really proud of her and of my dad.

Andy: 00:35:56

You know, he.

Andy: 00:35:57

Um, thankfully, although, you know, we've lost some of my dad in terms of

Andy: 00:36:04

he's, he's kept a sort of a sort of a, you know, a contentment about him, I

Andy: 00:36:12

think is the way to, the way to put it.

Louise: 00:36:13

Yeah.

Andy: 00:36:14

And since he's gone into care, I think my mum and dad's

Andy: 00:36:17

connection has improved a bit again.

Andy: 00:36:19

Yeah.

Louise: 00:36:20

Yeah.

Louise: 00:36:20

So that's good.

Andy: 00:36:21

I say we have lots to feel blessed about and you know, this isn't,

Andy: 00:36:24

woe is us and you know, but I think.

Andy: 00:36:27

you know, as a politician, you can't see these things with your own

Andy: 00:36:30

eyes and say, okay, there's nothing else for me to talk about here.

Andy: 00:36:32

There's a lot to talk about, isn't there?

Andy: 00:36:34

And there's a lot to put in the public domain.

Andy: 00:36:36

And, and I hope, you know, by speaking that there are some people who

Andy: 00:36:40

listen to this podcast who just might feel a bit more seen and have a bit

Andy: 00:36:43

more visibility in the, the public and political debate as a result.

Louise: 00:36:47

And one last question, as a son, putting the politician

Louise: 00:36:51

aside, how's it been for you?

Andy: 00:36:54

Um, well, hard.

Andy: 00:37:00

In that it's hard for anybody who has quite big professional demands but

Andy: 00:37:05

then, you know, to me, I often find that, you know, my job, and this was

Andy: 00:37:11

true when I was an MP and a minister as well, is doable when there's

Andy: 00:37:15

quite minimal stuff going on in the personal space, uh, where it becomes

Andy: 00:37:20

undoable is when you've got difficult stuff happening in the professional

Andy: 00:37:26

space and, and I know that will be something that, you know, that everyone

Louise: 00:37:31

A lot of people experience who are working.

Andy: 00:37:32

Yeah, there's a point, you can feel the tipping point

Andy: 00:37:35

close at times, can't you?

Andy: 00:37:36

And some days you can feel it's right at your door, can't you?

Andy: 00:37:39

Um, but not every day.

Louise: 00:37:42

And caring can affect anyone at any time, at any level.

Andy: 00:37:45

It can indeed.

Andy: 00:37:46

And as I say, you know, I come back to it, credit to Ed Davey, but also Ed Balls, a

Andy: 00:37:52

former colleague of mine who's spoken out about the care he provided for his mum.

Andy: 00:37:56

You know, and I mean, we need more of that, more of that, definitely.

Andy: 00:38:00

And we need an honest conversation about what 21st century care looks like.

Andy: 00:38:07

We can do better than this.

Louise: 00:38:10

Well, I'm so grateful to you for coming and talking about

Louise: 00:38:13

your experience of care, Andy.

Louise: 00:38:15

I think you're, um, a beacon and, um, a lot of people will relate to

Louise: 00:38:21

it and, uh, I'm just so grateful for your honesty and for sharing.

Andy: 00:38:25

Well, it's great to come on.

Andy: 00:38:26

I don't know about a beacon, but I mean, I, what I absolutely

Andy: 00:38:30

will be is a voice on it.

Andy: 00:38:31

You know, I, I, I always have been.

Andy: 00:38:33

That's why I was really pleased.

Andy: 00:38:35

to come on.

Andy: 00:38:36

I love what you do.

Andy: 00:38:37

It sounds like, uh, you know, something that, you know, I would

Andy: 00:38:42

recommend so strongly to everybody.

Andy: 00:38:44

It's a podcast, I'm sure that gives a lot of, a lot of, um, encouragement to

Andy: 00:38:49

people in some pretty difficult moments.

Andy: 00:38:51

Cause I have learned that some days are really bleak are they not for people

Andy: 00:38:56

who care and, uh, yeah, they need a lift and I'm sure you provide it.

Louise: 00:39:02

Well, thank you, Andy.

Louise: 00:39:03

You sound like you care.

Andy: 00:39:07

I like to think I do.

Louise: 00:39:09

I think you do.

Louise: 00:39:10

Thank you so much.

Andy: 00:39:11

You're welcome.

Louise: 00:39:11

Appreciate that.

Louise: 00:39:16

Thank you for listening and please like, subscribe, follow and join our

Louise: 00:39:22

community of unpaid family carers on the Do I Sound Like I Care?

Louise: 00:39:26

socials @CarerPodcast

Louise: 00:39:31

Do I Sound Like I Care?

Louise: 00:39:33

Is a Libra Studios production and was produced and edited by David Barnes.

Louise: 00:39:40

See you next time.